Less than 24 hours after the demonstration I attended against the war - it broke out by a blitz by the Israeli Air Force. A counter attack of rockets fell on Israeli towns. It dominates the news worldwide.
So, 8 hours after the war broke out, also the voice of the minority was heard. I attended another demonstration, with the same type of crowd, but in much bigger numbers.
Anti Gaza War Demonstration #2
More than a thousand people marched from the Cinemateque to the gates of the “Kirya” - Israeli Defense Minstry in Tel Aviv. PM Olmert was visiting there at the same time and talking to reported about the operation.
The slogans were the same, and also the main speaker was the same guy - Dov Khenin. The message changed, since the war already was in action.
He called for an immedate cessation of hostilies.
Currently, the fighting is still going on, and only the radical left wing parties are against it. The Israeli left Meretz party currently supports it. They’ll probably change their mind in a few days, when they’ll understand that it leads to nowhere. They always wake up too late.
Anyway, for whoever is reading this overseas, I’m writing a second post about (almost) the same issue so soon, just to stress that there is also a different voice in the Israeli street, currently a very small minority.
Protest Against the Gaza War #2
More (bad quality, sorry) pictures from the second Anti Gaza War Demonstration.
Only 15 civilians died.
The rest really were bad guys.
http://www.cfxweb.net/civax/2008/12/28/out-of-230-dead-only-15-civillians/
Remember whoever is merciful to the cruel, will ultimately be cruel to the merciful.
You say it dominates the news worldwide?
I am in America and while sure it has been mentioned it is hardly dominating the news as say the Mumbai attacks did.
Sorry, it is just one story among many. Actually the “Santa Killer” is still the focus of attention of the news channels here.
Explain to me how your protests isn’t sedition.
Seems to me that you are a traitor against Israel.
thanks for these reports.
very important to be informed about “this different voice in israeli street”
(in france, the war dominates the news)
Gill, thanks for the support!
It is a small comfort to see that even You are calling the demonstartors (funny, it rhymes with “traitors”) “radical left wing”. indeed they are radical, so radical it seems they are totally lost. and sadly, they are reluctant to wake up and smell the kassam. what will it take to convince you people that we are under a continuos attack, and have endured it for the last 8 years? no wonder that there are voices who say that only a direct hit on Tel Aviv will burst your bubble. I wouldn’t want anywhere in Israel to be hit by palestinian rockets, so do you mind waking up without being bombed?
DC, as aforementioned in previous discussions, we don’t share the same opinions on the solution. Nobody wants to be bombed.
Currently the protesters belong to radical left wing side of Israeli politics, but this will change and become more mainstream, just like in the Lebanon war, not so long ago.
I stand corrected, but not by you - not only radical left wind, but also arab citizens of Israel.
now that is a real honorable crowd to be part of, isn’t it?
I don’t care how mainstream you predict the demonstrations to be. I hate the fact that they exist in the first place. it takes some nerve to protest against Israeli violence (let alone call it genocide) after 8 years of kassams on sderot.
I respect your civilian activism, but how much of it had anything to do with sderot?
Perhaps letting Gaza have more and a steady supply of water, food, electricity, allow for the factors that create possibility to make more jobs, allow exports etc. would ease and stop the rocket attacks. If you imprison people and take away their food, water, freedom, electricity, their jobs and envision them no future for themselves their youth and their kids its difficult to envision anything other than them trying to fight. How would Israelis react if they had been put into the same prison camp under the same conditions?
It’s important to show this resistance to the world. No matter how small, it preserves some dignity to the Israeli side. You can’t imagine how bad Israeli actions are seen from Europe (well, you probably can, as they are very bad). The point is that recently I attended a presentation of Waltz with Bashir here in London, and after the movie there was Q&A. Everyone was against Israel, obviously, but there was one thing that the animator of the movie said that marked the difference between, say, the Rwandan genocide with the indifference of the Western powers, and the Sabra & Shatilla genocide with the indifference of Israel: that after Sabra & Shatilla you had 400,000 Israelis calling for Sharon’s resignation in the streets of Tel-Aviv. You didn’t have 400,000 French calling for the resignation of Chirac after Rwanda, even though French troops were present there. So keep this protest going, is so important…
I commend you for marching for peace. It shows we tolerate dissent. It also shows that you support intolerance. Hamas wants to assassinate Tzipi Livni. My family now lives within Hamas missile range.
If you really want peace, why don’t you demand that Hamas’ “freedom fighter” leadership be handed over to our courts?
I heard that over 300 rockets were launched according the Israeli government but you’d think that if any of them caused any deaths, the Israeli gov’t would’ve been on it like they are now. Their attacks are inproportionate to what they claim to have been given. Israel has major advanced weaponry and in a small area that is left for the Palestinians to live, it stands to reason that practically a majority of innocent civillians will pay the price. When you squeeze a population, you give Hamas more ammo, figuratively, to lash out. Why does the discourse not just start on the reasons behind it all? Water and other necessary resources for the Israeli and Palestinian populations to live on?
I wonder Yohay, does Israel still have an open door policy for anyone who’s Jewish and wishes to emigrate to Israel?
Ingrid
Ingrid
what proof do you need? what will it take to make you believe palestinians launched any number of rockets? do mortar shells count?
or is it just because less Israeli civilians die than palestinians? or maybe what you are realy saying is, that if more Israelis were to die from palestinian attacks, Israel would have had a better reason to go to war?
keep in mind that everu rocket is launched towards civilian population, no matter what the numbers are.
the sad truth is that Israel was just lucky. lucky that kassam rockets and mortars hit mostly in open grounds, and lucky only a few were killed or injured.
another thing is, nobody would have sqeezed them if they were up to anything positive. they got millions of funds from all around the world, all they did with it is arm themselves to the teeth. does this stand for a reason?
Hamas doesn’t need a “reason to lash”. its main purpose is the total extinction of the state of Israel (not my words but theirs), so any Israeli action is just an excuse.
My friends…thanks for these reports.
very important to be informed about “this different voice in israeli street”. An other voice to the world.
Congratulations.
here in Brazil, the war dominates all the diferents news
I am a pacifist and an anti-capitalist. I don’t hate anyone but tyrants and fascists who support them. I respect all civilians, both in Gaza and in Sderot.
Just one simple question to ‘DC’: if Palestinians are “armed to the teeth”, why is Israel army always winning the battle? Why are there just a few people lying dead on the ground on one side, and a bloody massacre on the other? Do you want me to think that Palestinians are just not as “lucky” as Israelis? Don’t be fool. I know well Hamas’ faults, but you seem not to know Israel’s crimes. Maybe you don’t want to know them. Maybe you don’t want the others to know them, as most mainstream media do.
“DC“, Israeli Arabs are citizens of this country, like you and me. Racism won’t get us anywhere. I hope that no one will be bombed anymore.
Jan Ivar, I agree that if the Palestinians would have better prospects for the future, they would have less motivation to fight. Unfortunately, both the Israeli leadership and Hammas did very little to improve the civilian situation of the Palestinians in Gaza.
Ingrid, as I wrote above, it seems that both leadership didn’t try to solve the fundamentals, but only arguing like small children about “who began?”. Yes, Israel still has an open door policy for Jews. They are granted full civilian rights upon immigrating to Israel.
wagner, I’m happy to spread the word. I’m surprised to hear that even in Brazil, this conflict is of such big interest.
Lou, like in every country, the mainstream media takes a patriotic stand, and when it comes to suffering, it focuses on our country and not the other side.
Yohai: when have I ever Implied that I want to see Israeli arab citizens killed? it’s one thing you call me a racist, but stick to the facts. I never wrote anything like that, period. I resent the demonstrations, but I am well aware of the right to protest. I wrote it specifically, maybe you need to read again.
Lou: I don’t understand the question - the facts are there - palestinians ARE very well armed. Israel is better armed…it does not change the fact that the palestinians had no real reason to get armed like that in the first place, if they were interested in peace. maybe I should remind you all that the current attack came after 8 years of rockets and terror attacks, a fact that has obviously slipped your minds, or maybe you’d rather just ignor it, because it intefres with represnting hamas as the peace organization that it is. my point was, that hamas took advantage of the tahdia (ceaze fire) to get armed again - and did nothing to increase the prospect to their future and to subdue their own motivation for fighting.
I am well aware of Israeli actions in the occupied territories. I served more that needed in this region and I don’t think you can surprise me.
it does not, however, change the fact that hamas intentionally targets civilans. (and before you jump to compare, I’ll say that Israel doesn’t, never did, and I hope that never will. hamas hides rockets inside schools, neighbourhoods and generally in civilian facilities. )
in all my years as a soldier, both in obligatory service and reserve, I never encountered orders to hit civilians. so before you compare crimes, compare facts.
DC is a smart guy.
My question is a very simple one: if Palestinians are “armed to the teeth” as you say, why is Israel army always winning the battle?
You are not answering me because you know you are in bad faith.
You just say that “Israel is better armed”, well yeah at least you admit it! This is a very practical matter. But you add that it does not change reasons and intentions, and “Hamas intentionally targets civilians”.
You cannot compare intentions. Even if we all know that Hamas’ intentions are not peaceful ones. You cannot do it also because you cannot link Hamas’ intentions and crimes with Palestinians’ intentions, hopes and future; that is the same future that you are destroying while trying to destroy Hamas. Those civilians, those children lying under rubble were the future of Palestine. There’s no more future for them. You say that no one ever ordered you to hit civilians, but the fact is that civilians die under your fire, under your bombings. And curiously nobody knows where Hamas’ leaders are! Probably hiding somewhere else, I suppose.
Therefore, the correct answer was: Israel army is always winning (and always will) the battle because not only is massively better armed than Hamas’ militants (thanks God and USA!), but mainly because no one cares about your true intentions when you’re killing people for self-defence and/or in the name of God…just because you’re fighting against terrorists! And that justifies everything, as we can see. Even a massacre, a slaughter of the innocents.
That’s the point. But that’s a paradox!
So the point is what we want to define as terrorism.
I think it depends on conveniences, not on intentions.
I think there are two types of terrorism, and one of them has just caused almost 400 dead men, women, children, civilians. That’s all.
Lou
if that was a compliment, thank you. if it was just you being sarcastic, thank you anyway.
first, I must first apologize for my english - not my native language as you can well see.
second, I think you are trying to make me apologize that my country is killing more palestinians than hamas kills Israelis. I won’t.
the numbers don’t tell the tale, as much as you hate to hear that.
I believe that despite the chance that the current action would change things for the better, the actions were defensive and came as a response to hamas doing what it does best - trying to kill Israeli civilians.
I don’t understand why I can’t compare intentions. I think you say that because no one can claim that there is an Israeli initiative (sorry, couldn’t find a proper term) to destroy or exile the palestinian nation, but hamass’ intentions are very clear - total destruction of Israel. this is their policy, and I believe it makes people uncomfortable to admit it, so they divert the discussion to other channels, such as Israeli agression, occupation etc. all of these are bad things, ofcourse, but are not part of a master plan, mere reactions to hamas violence. not necessarily smart reactions, I admit that.
by the way, self defence is a priciple you SHOULD care about. the criminal law does, the international law does, and since I certainly see Israeli actions as a reaction, I must use this case myself.
I urge you to first understand the terms you are using, like massacre and slaughter…these imply to “intentional mass killing”. do you truly believe that anyone in Israel wants that? I don’t. on the other hand, hamas boldly declares its intentional destruction of Israel.
call it what you want - they want to kill ME. from what you say, I understand you expect me let them do it.
My dear DC, obviously I was sarcastic.
You asked me to “compare facts”: that’s exactly what I am doing. I am even counting dead people, and yes, your country “is killing more palestinians than hamas kills Israelis”. You are not comparing facts: you are comparing intentions (“do you truly believe that anyone in Israel wants that?”), and you should better stop talking about people, about civilians; let me tell you I don’t believe in Israel government’s good intentions as well as I don’t believe in Hamas’. I believe in the right of everyone to exist.
You are right, of course “self defence is a priciple you should care about”, but as Mark Perry (co-Director of the Conflicts Forum group) told Al Jazeera, if you say that Israel has the right to defend itself from rocket attacks, my question to you is: don’t you believe that Palestinians also have the right of self-defence?! You talk about the international law, well Israel don’t give a damn about that! The facts prove it. Stop talking about my hypothetical intention to kill you or about yours to kill me! Intentionally or not, Israel is killing civilians - that’s just what I’m saying - and no one cares about it or, worse, people like you justify it! Read this, please: UN, 25 percent of Gaza killed civilians ( http://www.france24.com/en/20081231-25-percent-gaza-killed-civilians-un ). You have no right to do this, but you have the force to do it and that is why it is a ‘tolerated’ massacre. Facts, not intentions. Democracy and international law have nothing to do with this.
Lou, I must thank you for being honest. somehow I feel that the more you write, more of your inclination towards a certain side tends to reveal itself - much better than trying to look neutral.
it may come as a surprise to you, but I totally accept the palestinians right to defend themselves. if, ofcourse, Israel was to attack them without being attacked, who could argue. facts are facts, dear Lou. I assure you the next time Israel is to be the first to shoot, I will keep silent.
but, unfortunately, that is not how things are, and you keep your agenda. I asked you why shouldn’t I compare intentions, and you dodge the question. you compare what you find convenent to compare. Israel has laws, whether you believe it or not, I couldn’t care less. Israel also has a formal declaration of independence, and nothing is said there regarding the annihilation of any other nation. I urge you to check the other side and come back with, er, facts?
on the other hand, maybe I’m not getting through to you, so I’ll make it simple: Hamas has a formal statement where the destruction of Israel is specifically discussed. in addition, it is stated in this document that the war is against JEWS. it also states that “there is no solution to the palestinian situation but jihad, and all initiatives, international commitees and suggestions are a waste of time”.
the truth isn’t nice, Lou. they do want to kill me.
כמה עובדות:
חמאס יורה מתוך אוכלוסיה אזרחית וגני ילדים
חמאס מאחסן מלאי עצום של רקטות תחת מסגדים
אנשי חמאס מתחבאים בבתי חולים ומתחפשים לרופאים
חמאס בחר שלא להמשיך את הפסקת האש
חמאס יורה במכוון אל חפים מפשע בדרום הארץ
צה”ל מתריע ומזהיר ע”מ למנוע פגיעה באוכלוסיה לפני הפצצה
ישראל הבליגה במשך שנים רבות ונמנעה מפעולה כנוכחית
ישראל מטפלת בפצועים פלסטינים בבתי חולים ישראליים
עכשיו תגידו לי אתם מי מוסרי ומי לא!
DC, I am neutral because - as I wrote in my first message - I respect all civilians, both in Gaza and in Sderot, while you just respect yourself. But I am not neutral because I am an anti-capitalist, and I know well as you know who is backing Israel. This does not mean that I have an “inclination towards a certain side”: I am not supporting some stupid football team and I don’t want anyone to be killed; I am just trying to stop this massacre that Israel is guilty for, just because it’s Israel killing, and you cannot deny this (even if you prefer to think of a mass suicide related with the questionable choice of electing Hamas).
So please, let’s avoid trials for intentions and personal accusations.
I’m not comparing at all “what I find convenient to compare” - as you provocatively say. I just find a lack of consistency if I look at your declaration of independence, in which “nothing is said regarding the annihilation of any other nation”, and then I compare that to your criminal policy of war and embargo that IS annihilating Palestinians.
What should I say about Hamas’ formal statement? I never defended Hamas! It’s just you, YOU defending your crimes, whatever has been written on those useless statements.
Your attempt to decide who was the first to shoot is just stupid.
No one respected the truce. There have been killings on both sides during the last cease-fire. You are just feeling you are the victim, the only one: that’s simply not true.
And let me say that your ending is almost pathetic: “the truth isn’t nice…they do want to kill me.”
Oh yes, I know that. Palestinian civilians were thinking exactly the same thing. Then, they were killed. I am not surprised you are still alive and talking. So: please stop talking, my dear, and start thinking about those 400 that have been ‘democratically’, ‘reasonably’ and ‘justifiably’ killed to keep you safe.
I also recommend you to read this, even if I know that you will not agree: Israel’s failure to learn
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2008/12/20081230122143645275.html
Lou
what really is pathetic is you trying to deny Israel’s basic right to defend itself with the excuse that the palestinians are weaker, thereofr do not pose a threat on Israel, and that ofcourse leads you to the oh-so-smart conclusion that Israel has no reason to use force. nice logic.
if a person TRIES to shoot you but misses, is that person guilty or not? what should be judged, the final outcome or te persons’ original intention? for god sake, what will it take to make you see that palestinians CHOSE a government that carved the extinction of jews on it’s flag? who the hell are we supposed to negotiate with here?
why do you refuse to deal with this subject? does it contardict your assumption on palestinians? these are not “just words”. they live by their beliefs, act by them and kill by them.
if all you count are the dead in each side, who was right in 2nd world war? can you guess? the germans, because more of them died! now how stupid does that sound?
just because less Israelis were killed doesn’t mean Israel is the bad side here. the least you can do is learn the facts before you preach, and by the way, Lou, what gives you the right to preach anyway? did you do any preaching when kassam rockets fell in Israel before Israel’s reaction?
did you protest against suicide bombers when busses blew up in jerusalem and tel aviv? did you even care, or know? because only a few tens died in every of these bombings…
I guess it is quite convenient to sit there, wherever you sit, and play the all knowing Lou. but guess what, when you walk this land, things are not black and white anymore.
Al-Jazira is certainly not the channel to show the whole picture. I know very well that palestinian suffering is more photogenic than the Israeli suffering. hey, they die, we just lose property, right? I can’t say I’m sorry we have no mass killing pictures to show too, maybe it would satisfy the world and our right for self defence was recognized, who knows.
her’s a thought for you, Lou: if the palestinians rockets would have landed in a kindergarten, and 30 kids would have died, do you think they would have bothered to even say “oops”?
my point is, if they could hit us better, they would. if they had stronger weapons, they would have used them against civilian population. if they could, they would, but they can’t! we can, and still we hold back, because for every bullet we have to justify ourselves, the world demands us to stop, but never does the same when we die.
this is why I believe you and the rest of the world are inclined, fed by palestinian propaganda and supportive press, founded by Iran, like Al Jazira. you will never see the reason for an event, just the Israeli soldier shooting, so what do you know?
Yohay,
does this open door policy not need to be revoked? How are you expected to have even the most basic resources (water) if there are that many people to share it with? I see it as the real, most fundamental reason behind this ‘getting rid of the Palestinians’ from day one.. like usual, religious reasons and claims can be nicely wrapped around true, more ‘common’ and natural reasons.. but then, so are most wars, cloaked in religion to get the religious fanatics on all sides or whichever side to take up arms (interestingly that none of the three major religions ever NOT take up arms even though peaceful relations is such an important part of it, well ok.. perhaps not as much the old as it is the new testament but I digress).. but it all boils down to feeding people. It’s what is going to dominate future wars as resources are getting more and more scarce..
thanks for answering my question Yohay, I hope your parents are doing well and can return soon to their home,
Ingrid
Ingrid
by “open door policy” you mean the other opinions that you suddenly see here?
Military Bible!!!
1. Worlds Christian-jewish Church helping Israel!!!
2. Jewish-biblical-christian Education helping Israel!
3. Christian World with Schools, Churchs, Familys helping Israel!
4. The Biblepropagand helping Israels Apartheid in Palestine!
5. Westworld helping Israel!!!
Atheist!
Christmas is a Nazi-Demonstration in christian criminal World!
1. Jesus+David+MOses+Hitler+Joshua+Aichmann+Bush+Obama!!!
2. Christmas+Jesus+Genocide+Gaza+Auschwitz+Deuteronomy!!!
3. Deuteronomy+Genocide+David+Jesus+Hitler+Matth.5:17-19.
4. Hitlers Christmas in Auschwitz: (Internet)
5. Jesus+Hitler+Bush+Obama!!!
6. Christmas+Nazi=Holiday!!!
7. Hitler+Jesus!!!
8. Gaza+White Phosphorus Bombs+Falluja+Afghanistan+Military Bible!!!
9. Jesus+Adolf Hitler!!!
Christmas is a very dangerous and intolerant Holiday!!!
1. Christmas is a Racism, War, Genocide, Slavery!!!
2. Deuteronomy+Genocide+Jesus=Matth.5:17-19.
3. Christmas is Diktatur: Luke 17:29.
4. Christmas=SS!!!
5. Jesus Christ+Adolf Hitler!!! (Same shit!!!)
6. Ex.22:17. Inquisition: 9.000.000 Withes died!!!
7. Deuteronomy:Genocide, Genocide, Racism, War!
8. Military Bible and Nuclearwar in Iraq!
22dumb ass
כמה עובדות:
חמאס יורה מתוך אוכלוסיה אזרחית וגני ילדים
חמאס מאחסן מלאי עצום של רקטות תחת מסגדים
אנשי חמאס מתחבאים בבתי חולים ומתחפשים לרופאים
חמאס בחר שלא להמשיך את הפסקת האש
חמאס יורה במכוון אל חפים מפשע בדרום הארץ
צה”ל מתריע ומזהיר ע”מ למנוע פגיעה באוכלוסיה לפני הפצצה
ישראל הבליגה במשך שנים רבות ונמנעה מפעולה כנוכחית
ישראל מטפלת בפצועים פלסטינים בבתי חולים ישראליים
עכשיו תגידו לי אתם מי מוסרי ומי לא!
G E N O C I D E IN J E W I S H T O R A H !
Deuteronomy: 7:1., Deut. 7:16., Deut. 7:22., Deut.12:29., Deut.19:1.
Pedophily: Numery 31:17.
Cannibalism: 28:53.